Re: [ebxml-bp] IBM to Support BPEL-Based Web Services

["David RR Webber" <david@drrw.info>]

Kenji,

I would disagree here.

I have built a BPEL editor as well as a BPSS one.

BPEL - as John Yunker so rightly noted - represents
climbing Mount Fuji - just to make a cup of tea
every morning.

Joe Chiusano has come the closest I've seen to
defining a simple approach to BPEL - but that
suffers from being too simplistic.

Don't forget before you can write any BPEL - you
first have to learn and write WSDL.  It could not
be more complicated if you tried!

BPEL really is in danger of being a mini-4GL -
and then there are three ways of doing most
things - so which one do you pick and why?

Now of course Microsoft and IBM have tried
to hide all this underneath GUI interfaces that
write it all for you.  The snag then is that the
BPEL it creates will only work inside their
toolset (naturally!) and nowhere else.

Maybe you can reserve judgement on just
what kind of lowlevel trickery is needed in
BPSS - my sense is not much.

My experience is that for building
eBusiness process definitions BPSS has
an excellent feel to it - and the right level
of detail and control mechanisms to make
it attainable by business designers (this was
John Yunkers another point).

That is why I am focused on the editing
tool as the way to bring realization to the
marketplace.  Once business designers
realize they can do this themselves quickly
and easily and are not beholden to a
classic situation where BPEL programmers
have to dictate everything to everyone else,
as technology, not business - then the
better off everyone will be.

I believe there is every much chance that
the marketplace will reject BPEL as being
too complex and too arcane.  I say this
because I've seen alternative process control
scripting built by another market leader in
this space - and their approach was compelling
and simple.   Therefore my conclusion is
that's only a matter of time before we have a
Python style event horizon and someone like
a James Clark is talking up their simpler easier
method....

DW.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kenji Nagahashi" <nagahashi@fla.fujitsu.com>
Cc: "ebXML BP" <ebxml-bp@lists.oasis-open.org>
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: [ebxml-bp] IBM to Support BPEL-Based Web Services


> Hi,
>
> David, I think you're misisng Duane's point... He's talking about
> prioritization for greater market.
> I see there are views on BPSS: One view puts higher priority on
> "documentation", and the other puts higher priority on "automation".
> For automation purpose, we need to define very formal and detailed
> computational model for the language, pretty much like BPEL is doing. We
> need lots of implementation experience for this goal...
>
> And my personal view is that "automation" almost always gets greater
> market share.
> See how BPEL is doing.  BPEL attracted many people for the ability to
> automate the process and some BPEL engine has been built before any
> design tools. If language can provide automation with good level of
> abstraction, people just use it even if no good GUI is available for it.
> How people used C compiler before Visual C?. How people used HTML before
> any web authoring tools?
>
> I'm not saying "automation" view is right and "documentation" view is
> not. "documentation" is an important usage of BPSS. And it is also
> important to think about what BPSS can do for "automation". I'm just
> wondering if many in ebBP are interested in this aspect.
>
> Duane, thanks for your kind words for our Ottawa presentation... It was
> a great opportunity for both of us!
>
> Regards
> Kenji
>
> David RR Webber wrote:
>
> > Duane,
> >
> > Its a Catch22 - and also resources.
> >
> > However - I can build the designer tools for V2.0 in a few days.
> >
> > Once I have those - then that creates more of a compelling
> > reason for the announce on the open source BPSS engine.
> >
> > DW
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Duane Nickull" <dnickull@adobe.com>
> > To: "David RR Webber" <david@drrw.info>
> > Cc: "Matthew MacKenzie" <mattm@adobe.com>; "ebXML BP"
> > <ebxml-bp@lists.oasis-open.org>
> > Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 4:01 PM
> > Subject: Re: [ebxml-bp] IBM to Support BPEL-Based Web Services
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>David RR Webber wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>My top priority coming few weeks is to get BPSS V2.0
> >>>editing tools done - so people can build their
> >>>process models easily.
> >>>
> >>>Next up we need someone to announce an open source
> >>>BPSS engine... room for a joint collaboration on this
> >>>me thinks.
> >>
> >>This is highly illogical.  Who would have a need to have BPSS design
> >>tools or BPSS before you have an engine to run them.  I would argue for
> >>execution engine first, then the designer toolsets or at least at the
> >>same time.
> >>
> >>Fujitsu demonstrated some pretty cool stuff in this space in Ottawa last
> >>month.
> >>
> >>Duane
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>-- 
> >>Senior Standards Strategist
> >>Adobe Systems, Inc.
> >>http://www.adobe.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>